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Writer's pictureMegan Belden

7. Helpful Habits in Finding Freedom from Alcohol and Disordered Eating

Updated: Jul 16

Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and writer Dana Leigh Lyons joins Cecily this week for an honest conversation about her relationship with dimmers: disordered eating, alcohol, and even screen time. Dana opens up about her early struggles with food, and later, her relationship with alcohol, which she quit in 2020. She describes how her experience growing up in a household with heavy drinking influenced her to abstain from alcohol until her twenties when she started drinking socially. 


Dana's story of transformation involves significant self-awareness, finding support through online communities, and integrating various holistic practices into her life, including yoga,  meditation, and plenty of solitude. Her 'Sober Soulful' newsletter on Substack explores addiction and sobriety expansively and she also uses the platform to celebrate and elevate other writers on the same theme. In emphasizing the importance of presence, solitude, and self-care in her continuing journey toward a holistic, connected life, Dana invites a gentle, but honest review of our habits and how we can be more healthful daily. 


Connect with Dana

You can find Dana on Substack @danaleighlyons and her website: https://www.danaleighlyons.com/ 


Please remember to rate, subscribe, review, and share the Undimmed podcast to help this content reach more humans in need of support or inspiration. You can also follow Cecily's @clearlifejourney on Instagram, subscribe to her Substack, or learn more via her website.


Credits:

Composer / Sound Alchemist: Laura Inserra

Audio Engineer: Mateo Schimpf





Key Points

00:00 Connecting or Disconnecting?

03:15 Dana's Journey to Sobriety

05:54 The Turning Point

08:26 Life After Alcohol

21:37 Healing Disordered Eating

29:44 Self-Soothing and Solitude

33:43 Finding Community and Support with Sober Influencers

35:06 We’re All in This Together

37:14 A Sober Relationship

38:55 Remember What You Love To Do

41:15 Conclusion and Farewell


Transcript

This transcript is autogenerated.


Dana Leigh Lyons 00:00

One of the things that I always returned to, you know, whatever the substance, whatever the behavior is, I just, I asked myself, is this connecting or disconnecting? And that's my answer right there. And it doesn't matter if we call an addiction or whatever we call it. But I want to choose things that are connecting to my true self to what I consider my core values to other people in it in the sense of true intimacy, not binding over a drug, drug of choice. And, and connecting to things that are larger than us things known and unknown. So I think we we kind of know the answer when we ask that question of something is this. Is this connecting or disconnecting?


Cecily Mak 00:47

You're listening to undimmed, a podcast about living a clear life without dimmers. I'm Cecily Mack and that was Dana Lee Lyons you just heard. She's a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and writes a powerful substack newsletter called sober soulful, where she explores addiction and sobriety, from an expansive lens, beyond drugs and alcohol. Dana's writing is textured and poetic, as are her accompanying photographs, her offering standout among others in the space as beautifully inclusive, and community focused. On today's episode, Danna, talks about her struggles with alcohol and disordered eating. She used both to tamp down overwhelming anxiety, until she decided to make a change. Her transformation has involved radical self awareness, finding support through online communities, and integrating yoga and meditation into her daily routines. You know, this is one of those really, kind of special universal moments where I really believe people find each other and find each other's work and voices and offerings in mysterious ways. I really appreciate connecting with you, because we met through the substack platform, which I know is one that we're both really passionate about. And to be able to have a conversation with you, and then one that we can kind of bring out of the walls of substack and offer to the world beyond. And those of you who are not yet on substack, we invite you to join us there it is a lovely place. So inviting you and welcoming you to this podcast felt extra special. So, so welcome.


Dana Leigh Lyons 02:44

Thank you so much for inviting me here. And yeah, I love substack and such a great community there. But it's kind of nice to step away from our screens in one way anyway, and meet face to face.


Cecily Mak 02:58

I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey. I'm wondering if we could go back to how this all started. Tell us your story. How did you end up in these healing spaces, both as a writer and a Chinese doctor?


Dana Leigh Lyons 03:15

Well, interestingly, I didn't stop drinking until 2020. But I didn't start drinking until I was 22. So I stopped in my mid 40s. And what I would call my addictive patterns or my unhelpful patterns from earlier on way before I even tried alcohol, mostly involved, food eating also overworking, schoolwork, seeking external validation. So all these things, or use those to numb out and as you call it dim, like dim my brightness and for a long time before I even got into alcohol. And I think that's important just because no alcohol is just one thing that we can use. It's just one drug of choice, but there are many others. And I'm still working with some. So this isn't like an ended process. And for me, there really was never a single rock bottom, whether it comes to food or alcohol or anything else. And in some ways. I mean, for me, I think there's a small part of me that wanted a rock bottom. I'm sure I could have found it if I could, if I looked hard enough, but I'm part of me. I wanted that because it's a clear dividing line and it's like okay, never again. And I had to come at it a little bit more organically and gradually it was more of a series of decisions and things and realizations through the years.


Cecily Mak 04:44

So, I want to go on a journey back to kind of the, the heart and soul of this time for you. And before we before we do that, tell us a little bit about, just specifically your journey with alcohol. And I know that this is, you know, kind of one piece of a complicated puzzle. And I think that's the case for all of us that very few of anyone just drinks, develops physical addiction and then has an issue and then stops or doesn't, it's usually just one kind of small or significant facet of a very complex set of factors. But you say you started drinking a little bit later? Because we do have a lot of listeners who are, are focused on their relationship with alcohol. Can you tell us a little bit about like, what was the beginning of that journey? Like for you? How did it evolve over time? And, you know, an example whether it was the first or later of when you made a decision that you wanted to change that pattern?


Dana Leigh Lyons 05:54

Yeah, so it's interesting, because when I think back to the first time I had alcohol, I was using it almost as a way to escape my other addictive patterns. Because I had been this super shy kid awkward workaholic, study a Holic always had to get straight A's. That was the way I calmed my anxiety, and combed the internal and I thought, external chaos. And then one moment, as an undergrad, I thought enough, I'm going to Oh, and I should say, I was terrified of trying alcohol, because I was as a child was surrounded by too much drinking. So I was never going to be like that. I think I was 22. And I was like, You know what, I'm, I'm sick of this fear. I'm just going to try it. Everyone's doing it. I was on a campus at college, I went into the 711, I bought a bottle of beer, and I like went behind a bush and drank it. And I was so scared about what would happen and what it would turn me into. And it was like, Oh, this is fine. This is fun. And it let me step out of myself. And let me step out of how I've been holding on so tight in so many ways. And at the beginning, you know, that's what it was. And then I would say, over the years, it became something quite different. And by the time I stopped, I was drinking kind of what what a lot of people drink like wine with thinner one to two glasses. And I didn't feel right to me, like it felt like it was not so much the amount although of course, we know that any amount is not healthy and is hurtful to sleep and mental health and so many things. But the amount of energy that I put into, at least there'll be wine with dinner, like it was just like a way to pull through every single day of It's okay, I'll work nonstop, they won't think about these things. I'll make it through the stress and anxiety and I'll get that wine with dinner. And the fact that that was like the highlight of my life. And, and it didn't even stop there, of course, because it disrupts sleep, and it increases anxiety. And, you know, so many things, it comes with this big dose of guilt and shame, or at least it did for me, because I couldn't believe that I had become this. And this was the thing that, you know, after like, begging people around me to not drink as a child and yet I had become that that exact thing a certain way.


Cecily Mak 08:26

When you were kid, I imagine it was family that was around you that was drinking. Yeah, okay. Yeah. They're very strong opinions among parents these days about the advisability of drinking around and in front of kids, like how much do we want to be normalizing this, and it's fascinating that, you know, your initial reaction was, I'm not going to do that. And you made it all the way to college without and then add your own, your own experiences. So, so you were kind of a casual social ish drinker who partied on weekends. So a couple glasses of wine at dinner, but then not feeling great. Tell us a little bit more about how, like, what were some of those inner conversations you were having with yourself before you stopped?


Dana Leigh Lyons 09:12

Well, I had so many day ones, like there's part of me, I would say that never felt comfortable with drinking, and that always thought I kind of had in my mind, I'm gonna have to stop when I'm in my 40s. And I grieved that I had to anticipatory grief for that for letting go of that. But I thought, you know, I never felt quite right drinking, partly because of my past and my family. And I always thought, I will eventually stop. And then I would say, leading up to it. I didn't stop all at once. I started becoming obsessed with online content without sobriety. And that's all I wanted to read. And so I was still drinking, but I was Googling things like sober curious and sober and sober living in an I fell into a community and a program, a couple of different programs, and I was still drinking through that, but it helped me bring attention to the fact that I wasn't even fully enjoying it. It was only like, you know, maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes that I really felt the high and it was kind of all downhill from there. Yeah. But many, many days during that during those months, those early months of thinking about it more seriously, I would write day one in my journal. And I would have to write day one again, the next day, because driving home from from yoga of all places, I would pass by the liquor store and be like, Oh, no, I don't want I really need this today. Like, it's just one glass. It's just two glasses. And the fact that it was so hard to stop, it's like, I could have done it any time. But why wasn't I?


Cecily Mak 10:50

Yeah, which just contributes to the kind of shame loop that you mentioned earlier, because, and I think you also referenced just this notion of how much energy it takes. That's one of the things that I hear about a lot is the amount of time and energy we spend thinking about whether or not we should drink or that we get to drink, or tonight tonight, I won't. But then again, what if it is very energy consuming?


Dana Leigh Lyons 11:21

All the negotiations. I mean, that just I'm so so glad to let that go. Which types of alcohol which nights? How much? When to take a break? Like just so much -- If something's really healthy and helpful for us? I don't think we have to have these constant negotiations around it.


Cecily Mak 11:41

Yeah. And they're often private. I mean, they're secretive us with ourselves. I don't know, in my case, at least, that was more painful than those moments of what I know, know, or self abandonment. I didn't have language for it at the time, but to start the week and say, you know, for me, it was I'm going to, I'm going to do this slide of a few 100 Steps near my house three times this week. And I'm not going to drink Monday through Thursday, because those are, you know, work school days in our household. And then when I do go out on Friday night, I'm going to be home by midnight, because blah, blah, and then just gradually watch those fall away. I'm not doing them was so hard. So you, you had a lot of day ones. What happened on your last day one?


Dana Leigh Lyons 12:32

I just said to myself, Well, I'm gonna give it 10 days, because any Grace says that it takes 10 days to get alcohol out of your system. So I'm not really giving it a chance, if I don't give it 10 days. By the end of 10 days, I was like, well, I might as well do 30 days, by the end of 30 days, I said, Well, I might as well do 90 days. And he really just went from there. When I quit, I expected to drink again, like I kept a half finished bottle of wine in my refrigerator. And I think it was like, you know, around the 90 day mark that I just poured it out. And I didn't want it I tend to from time to time, take little self retreats by myself and go stay in Airbnb someplace. And I did one during this period where I hadn't been drinking. And I hadn't made any promises to anyone. And I could have drank no one would have even known and I thought about it. And it was like no, I really don't want to like I'm in this little cabin, I'm reading it's peaceful. Like this is the kind of feeling that I was after with the alcohol. But it's actually going to last and I'm not going to feel like crap the next day.


Cecily Mak 13:38

It's so beautiful. And what is it? What is that? Feeling that? What is the kind of underlying feeling or emotion that you felt when you had that? That moment of recognition that that was actually what you're looking for it was it? Was it ease? Was it relief? Like what what was the actual underlying feeling?


Dana Leigh Lyons 14:01

It it was just a stilling of I really do suffer with a lot of anxiety and it was a calming of that and a place of serenity. Now of course, I still have moments of anxiety and sobriety. Absolutely. But the alcohol was contributing. And I would say my mental health is worlds different now than it was when I was still drinking. And then that was more the momentary feeling that I was after, including when I was drinking. It's like, oh, I just want this moment of peace and serenity. Of course with alcohol it doesn't last. But discovering that I could feel that without the alcohol or remembering that I could feel it without the alcohol was was such a gift and then in future months and in the years that have gone by. It's it's not all you know, the pink cloud of sobriety and good feelings. But there's this continuous deepening and I befriending myself I would say that didn't exist before. I'm still a nervous and shy person, but I have this inner confidence that I'd never had before. Maybe I had it when I was in like elementary school, but not since then. I feel more confident in my, in my capacity to show up for things and, and just to show up more beautifully, you know, it's not that I show up beautifully every day. But that's really my aspiration is how can I live life more beautifully? And I absolutely cannot do that when I'm drinking.


Cecily Mak 15:32

Yeah. I love the way that you speak that it actually reminds you of your writing event. It's one of those like, it is just a I don't know, like, it's like a simplicity in my experience, like a simplicity of consciousness. And the irony is that, and I heard you mentioned this a few minutes ago, when you're talking, talking about some of the original experience when you first were drinking. You know, we go through this, we're like, of course, we're children. And we're expansive. And we're not, you know, most of us not quite shy or too self conscious yet, right. And then life happens. And we make our way through tween hood and adolescence. And it's, it's a story I hear over and over again, it's in those difficult years of our teens and early 20s. When we have early experiences with alcohol, and that awareness of other people's perceptions of us falls away. And it feels relaxing. It does calm anxiety as you speak so well, too. And the painful irony is that the opposite is happening. Actually. Yeah. You know that the waking up the next day or in the middle of the night? Yeah, feeling regret or shame or just spending precious moments over rotating on what we did or didn't do the prior day. That's taking life away from us in a way. Yeah, so yeah, the 3am wake ups were horrible for me and waking three. And it wasn't that I did anything horrible, but it's just that reviewing. Okay, what did I say? How did I say it? What did I email? What did I comment on what post? And because we do show up differently when we drink alcohol, like it impacts us. So yeah, it's so nice never to have to worry about that again. Yeah, I remember once this woman who I know who's a, she's a yoga and meditation teacher now. But she had been part of a retreat center that I spent some time in in my 30s. And she came to visit our little family and me once with her partner, and I think stayed a night or I don't know, they were with us for part of a weekend. And I remember so vividly. The calm in her and interacting with her she had this steadiness of eye contact and just energy about her that was captivating. And it felt so far away from where I was, at that time, I was still drinking in the evenings and doing these weekends with my then DJ husband. And you know, the whole thing. In the years since that it's now been probably 15 years since since that weekend, I realized now that that calmness in her is something that I see a lot of people who have been through the journey that you and I have, right? Yes, yeah. We kind of get on the other side of it. And you know it, I think it's something that he gets existing people who have a steady meditation practice as well. And I definitely feel an experienced that in you both. And you're, you're just presence and speaking getting to know you, but also in what you offer online. And I think it's something we don't talk enough about. They're not a lot of easy words to describe that feeling from the inside out.


Dana Leigh Lyons 19:09

It really is about presence. I mean, that was one of the things as a kid but also now, I have a difficult time. Unless I was drinking myself. I've always had a difficult time being around people who drank because with one sip, I know it and something in them shifts and checks out. That's the way I experienced it. I feel so much safer and so much more trusting if a person is not drinking, because I feel like they're fully there.


Cecily Mak 19:38

Yeah. And you had to learn that as a kid.


Dana Leigh Lyons 19:42

Yeah, yeah. You know, I I have so much gratitude towards moms like you who are chasing something that I didn't experience as a child. i That's such a gift, you know? Yeah. We're both kids who grew up in households with a lot of alcohol and I


Cecily Mak 20:02

You know, there, I was actually reading something just today, CNN health is covering this non alcoholic drink movement. For listeners, this is April 1. And there's actually a great article in CNN health today about how the big trends in drinking or non alcoholic drinks. And something like, I think it's the article quotes half of us have in some way, shape or form been affected by somebody with some flavor of an alcohol use disorder. And, you know, I don't, I'd be curious to hear your experience. But I'm already hearing a little bit of one thing you and I sounds like have in common from this is this feeling of hyper vigilance?


Dana Leigh Lyons 20:47

Yeah. And over noticing, like being overly aware, it can be exhausting to be so aware of what somebody else's mind state is, do you have that today? Still? Yeah, I absolutely do. And I'm finding other ways to work with it. But it's almost like alcohol played a role. And this is part of those intergenerational cycles, because alcohol from very early on, played a role into why I was hyper vigilant. And yet, I later used alcohol to try to escape from that, from feeling hyper vigilant all the time. So yeah, it's very easy to see how these cycles can just play out across generations.


Cecily Mak 21:37

So if you're comfortable with it, I'd love to go back to go back in time a little bit further. You've been very open about how food and your relationship with food is maybe the more significant area of work for you. And I can imagine a little bit more difficult, though, you should tell us yourself just because food is something we can't go into an abstinence orientation with the way we can with drugs and alcohol. When did when did you and why did you have a complexity around your relationship with food? When When did that start? How was that part of your your journey?


Dana Leigh Lyons 22:21

I mean, the first time that I really remember being conscious of what I was consuming, and that way was was fairly young. I mean, I think it was an elementary school. I remember packing school lunches and looking for the drink box that had the fewest calories in it. I mean, and I was a teeny kid, it wasn't like I needed to track how many calories I Not that anyone needs to track. But like, I was this teeny little kid. And I was like, Oh, let me find the drink box with the fewest calories. And I was part of the whole movement. During that time, I guess it was surrounding me of that is bad. So choosing the low fat, no fat foods, really what it came down to less so in elementary school, but more as I moved into high school, was everything felt out of control. And I discovered that by focusing on this little corner, that this little corner of the world and trying to control that corner, it did a lot to help me feel less anxious. So it's like I discovered these things. And I discovered they worked. And one of them was restricting food. One of them was I would go on long, long runs. So exercise addiction. And then one was schoolwork, I would throw myself into schoolwork. And I was heartbroken over a breakup in sixth grade, for instance. And I learned that oh, if I throw myself into this social studies project, I feel less. So it was like a just a way to numb out and it's fascinating for me to look back now and think about these very conscious discoveries of like, oh, this works. This makes me feel better. This numbs things out. Wow. And what were you? What were you trying to not feel? Was it just kind of typical adolescent struggles in the awkwardness? Or is it related to you were having to deal with at home? I'd say both of those. He was just really I look at things sometimes in terms of patterns. And for me, a big pattern is fear of too much. Like I fear too much. Coming from outside, things feel out of control, people feel out of control, but also feeling too much inside. We can tense feelings that are painful, like you know, sadness, grief, anger, any of that even coming from the inside. And so I would try to make my world and my body smaller and smaller, to just numb out that feeling. Well, well, yeah. Well, and was this part of your kind of day to day experience dealing with the food


Cecily Mak 25:00

Pease, when you stopped drinking, or did you need to stop drinking and then address this later?


Dana Leigh Lyons 25:07

I know for many people that is the case, it's almost like drinking is the first thing to go. And then then that offers an opening to start changing other things. And that's definitely been true for me in certain areas. But what I might think of is my recovery from disordered eating or my recovery from anorexia happened way before I stopped drinking. And I have relapsed. So in, I think it was like 2017. And it's divorce and being last and trying to survive winter and just and keep the heat on. I did relapse with anorexia, but I got back out of it. And it's, it's one of those things that for me, it's the one I have to keep a close watch on. And, you know, right now, the majority the past 10 years, maybe even 15 years, I've been in really good place with food and body. But I know it's there. And I know that if things were to get really bad in one way or another, I have to watch that area, the same way that some people might have to watch their relationship with alcohol or, you know, maybe they might be afraid they'll go back to it. I don't really have that fear around alcohol. But I do have to watch it around restrictive eating. Yeah. And it's so much. I mean, imagine it's so much harder, again, then than an abstinence move, because we all make eating decisions every single day, throughout the day. And there is all of this information in our culture and in our media, encouraging us to have a certain body size and fitness level and eat healthy and the line between eating healthy and eating restrictive. I imagined blurs pretty easily. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll say that, for me to break away from the restrictive patterns from a really problematic relationship with food, I had to just kind of go back to the body, because the things that helped me the most with food, weren't really so much thinking or talking about it, although I'm sure that can be helpful. And maybe it's the thing for other people. But I got into yoga, and I started, I changed my diet in a specific way, I started eating paleo, primal, whereas I had been afraid of eating fat and afraid of eating protein for so long. For 10 years, overlapping anorexia, I had a very nutrient deficient, high sugar, high carb, zero fat, vegetarian, sometimes vegan diet, that people would have thought, I guess, is healthy, but like, I really wasn't getting the nutrients I needed. Like, I wasn't getting my period for 10 years, you know. So learning to eat differently, and learning to come into a relationship with my physical body, where the measure wasn't how thin I was, the measure was, you know, oh, this is really cool. I'm able to do this now to just think about, okay, what is my body need right now, just to stay physically healthy, and to move in ways that that are freeing and feel good? Yeah. And sounds like really honoring your body honoring, as you just noted, its needs. But then I, I imagine having a dedicated yoga practice is similar. Yeah. And yoga, I would say was huge for me for you know, deciding to quit drinking as well. I practice yoga daily, and I meditate daily. It's, there's a really good barometers to what's going on inside and you know, what things are helpful and not so helpful. What decisions and choices maybe didn't serve us and which ones do it's like, you can't escape it if you if you go inward and really get quiet and pay attention. Yeah. And so as you as you've gone into the inner, inner journey, you know, kind of peel back the layers of yourself and,


Cecily Mak 29:07

you know, I really, like feel your, your reference to having these ways to feel less right. And in particular, you speak to a relapse with anorexia, I ran a divorce. Like, we are all human beings, right? Life is beautiful and extremely difficult. And I don't think anybody can say that they are free from self soothing in some way, shape or form. It's how we make our way through the tough parts. How do you how do you self soothe today or, you know, several years out, obviously, the anorexia kind of difficulties although I definitely hear and understand that it's something you have to be mindful of. And alcohol isn't there for you


Dana Leigh Lyons 30:00

You don't have a half a bottle of wine in the fridge anymore. Like, how do you today self soothe? How do you take care of yourself when you're experiencing difficulty? If it's not one of those two tools you used in the past? Yeah, so I have things that I still do that are very, I would consider unhelpful. And and I'm trying to shift my relationship and I am shifting my relationship with them. And then I have things that are very helpful, and I want to deepen and am deepening that relationship. So my go twos are time I spend a lot of time alone. I love solitude, I love silence. And I make no apologies. You know, I, I spend a lot of time alone, I spend a lot of time in silence. When possible, I spend time in nature. I meditate every day. And I practice yoga every day. And those are really non negotiable. For me. I also love food, I love my meals. But I am this is, you know, this is a bit tricky. And I it's I kind of feel shy to say it because one of the things with anorexia is this desire to oftentimes to eat alone, and to eat in secrecy. And I definitely had that. I still prefer to eat alone. But I eat four meals, and I just want it to silence and I don't want to be having conversation, I just want to focus on the food and enjoy it fully. I love my meals. So I do that to call myself. And sometimes I kind of numb out with books, and that I don't see you so problematic. I still am numbing out in unhelpful ways with overwork with being online with checking my email, and seeking external validation through the screens and devices. And I've quit all social media except for substack notes, but I'm checking substack a little too often and,


Cecily Mak 31:59

you know, it's, I see those same patterns creeping back in and in other places. Yeah. But your self awareness is I've just want to acknowledge your self awareness is profound that you that you see these things and you you have a an evident ability to kind of observe, I think the way you frame it also so key for folks because


32:25

they're there are healthier and there are unhealthier ways to get through the tough stuff and social media online time. Absolutely. One of them. I mean, without question, and it's, you know, like so many other things so accessible and kind of encouraged and designed to get us to go back as much as possible. And then I imagine for you blending that with the fact that you really are being service, you are really offering very personal and very helpful, generous content for people who are getting a lot out of what you offer. I just want to I want to extend a little invitation of self grace for maybe every once in a while wanting a little bit of affirmation that it's, it is touching people the way that I that I see and I know it is so that's amazing. Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah. And I mean, I get so much out of online being in community and is also at the the early stages of my journey of giving up alcohol. I loved connecting with people and feeling supported and not feeling alone online. I mean, that was such a great gift. Because I didn't have those connections in my in my day to day life. What were the resources you went to or how did you find community when you first started? I found Hollywood occurs former sobriety school and I did that program and then I did her aftercare program when that existed. And I did Annie Grace's alcohol free experiment and I did the both the live version and the non live version of that and started reading all the Quizlet and that's back when I was on Instagram so started following lots of sober accounts on Instagram and I know there's downsides to kind of the the sober influencer sphere like any, like any online community or circles, but


Dana Leigh Lyons 34:26

but I really did find such community and support there just just knowing that there were other people out there and there were people who are making it look fun and not like this. Like sobriety had to be miserable. And I think that was that was a big deal for me. Yeah. Like this is all just about being human and exploring our relationship with all kinds of things alcohol, yes, but like, you know, so many other things that we do are substances and behaviors and I love creating you know that that sense of like We're all in this together. And there's not really an endpoint, there are things that you can absolutely quit. But then there are many other things like food that


Cecily Mak 35:09

how can we be in better relationship with it? Yeah, yeah. And it's a journey, as you point out this is, it's not like you stopped drinking, and you hit a certain number of weeks, months, years. And you're all done with that and you carry on or maybe your, your escape habit had to do with food, or work or sex or shopping, or whatever it is. It actually, I don't know, in my experience, I found it to feel more like an unfolding. Like there's this never ending, unfolding that happens. Because as things are arising, we're not squishing them down or avoiding them. We're actually letting them unfurl from us. And hearing you speak to the way that you protect solitude, and you kind of know what you need for your own unfolding is really inspiring. That's really beautiful to hear. Yeah, I love that word unfolding. And, I mean, I consider giving up alcohol, one of the most powerful things I did on this journey, because it brought so much else into clear seeing, ya know, for sure. I have two more questions for you. One, how did your social life change through all of this deep, inner transformative work?


Dana Leigh Lyons 36:27

So it didn't, it didn't impact my social life too much. I gave up alcohol, right before the city that I was living at, at the time, Victoria BC, went into full lockdown. So no one was out, you know, no one was doing anything. And I consider that a great guest. Like I will always relate, getting sober, to just having to stay in my house anyway. And just really getting this time and space to create how I live my days and how I do my work. I'm also very lucky in that my partner has been sober from drugs and alcohol for decades. So I didn't have to worry about, okay, how do I navigate our relationship, and yet, that team was its own twist, because we weren't living together at the time he was in the US, I was in Canada, he was trying to get back to Canada. And I got sober when I wasn't living with him. And I was afraid our relationship would be awkward when he saw me. Because I there was part of me that feared that even though he didn't drink, he liked me better when I was drinking, because I'm more outgoing and more fun. And it maybe did feel a little awkward at first, honestly. But now it doesn't at all. Like it just took, you know, a little while and and now it's where it's natural and open with each other as we ever were.


Cecily Mak 37:52

Beautiful.


Dana Leigh Lyons 37:54

I am so grateful that that I was with someone who it wasn't an issue because I don't think I could be in an intimate relationship with someone who drinks anymore. I just want to be with someone who's fully present in that way. And this really does, I think, go back to my childhood where I could tell the minute someone had had any alcohol part of them checked out, and wasn't really present anymore. So I think it's that more than anything, it's actually not fear that I would start drinking again, for me personally, I just think that that would happen. So Dina, if you could go back, back in time, to


Cecily Mak 38:33

a version of yourself. Before you were in the grips of some of the loops that you've had to navigate, whether it be your anorexia, experience or experience with alcohol, and knowing everything, you know, now, say something to her, what would you what would you tell that younger version of yourself today?


Dana Leigh Lyons 38:55

think it would be remember what you love to do, and keep doing it. I mean, as kids, we just have this capacity. And I think we're all born with this capacity to know what we love to do and be fully in the moment and not be self conscious. And it's so sad when that goes away, or gets, you know, gets filled in with worry and the external concerns and all of that. But we really do have that capacity. I really do believe it and I think that it's for anybody who's changing their relationship with alcohol or anything else that's numbing or distracting. It's really great news because it it doesn't have to be miserable. Like we can find our way back to that to that childhood place.


Cecily Mak 39:48

Beautiful. Thank you for that. And you know, whatever it is we're doing whatever it is we're kind of using your Denninger escaping I think that's such an important reminders. really to kind of honor ourselves and go back to our truest pure essence. And know it's okay, exactly how it is.


Dana Leigh Lyons 40:09

It's beautiful. So how do we find you? Where Where do you live on substack? or elsewhere? I'm sure that we're gonna have listeners who'd like to, to follow. Follow your work? Yeah, so I have a main website, which is Dana Lee lyons.com. And you can find me on substack at sober soulful, the substack URL is under my name. But if you search for sober, soulful and substack, you will probably find me. And I tried to publish once a week or so there. And yeah, that's my most active place online.


Cecily Mak 40:47

Awesome. Awesome. And all of this will be linked in the show notes. I want to note that Lee's spelled li GH if you're a pure listener, you're not going to go to the notes. So Dana Lee Lyons, and yeah, what a joy to have you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Leslie. And yeah, it was. It was a treat truly. Wonderful. Awesome. Thank you. Dana Lee Lyons is a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. She also writes about addiction, sobriety and soulful living. If you are exploring a relationship with a habit, or unhelpful pattern, you want to check out her newsletter, sober, soulful, and join her wildly inclusive heart first substack community. It was through her writing and the network she's built that I first connected with Dana, and her bold yet kind hearted approach to healing. You've been listening to undimmed I'm Cecily Mac. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're moved to do so, please take a moment and leave us a rating. It really does help others find us. undimmed as part of a larger movement called Clear life. It's an exploration of what it means to live clear without DeMars that can interfere with our intentional and present way of being. It's really about tuning into our true selves. To learn more about clear life, you can go to my website Cecily mac.com, that CEC ILYMAK are subscribed to my substack also under my name undimmed is produced by Joanne Jennings. Matteo chef mixes and masters the show. Laura and Sarah composed and recorded our music, and Megan Belden provides social media and marketing support. Thank you for joining us, be well


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