Healing Our Trauma Without Making It Our Identity with IFS Creator Dr. Richard Schwartz
What if the habit you're trying to quit was only ever trying to protect you? In this episode, Cecily Mak sits down with Dr. Richard Schwartz — the creator of Internal Family Systems (IFS) — for a tender, practical conversation about trauma, addiction, and what real healing actually asks of us.
Together they explore the Fourth Awareness: Healing. The Fourth Awareness invites us to seek to understand our trauma without making it our identity. Dr. Schwartz shares the story that sparked IFS more than 40 years ago, why "there are no bad parts," and how the behaviors we use to numb, dim, or self-soothe — alcohol, overwork, perfectionism, and more — are often young, protective parts stuck in the past. Rather than fighting them with willpower or shame, IFS offers a gentler path rooted in curiosity, compassion, and self-leadership.
Cecily also opens up to a live piece of parts work on the mic, and the two discuss recovery, grief, psychedelic-assisted healing with ketamine, and how to relate to the parts of us we'd rather not see.
Dr. Richard "Dick" Schwartz is also the Founder of the IFS Institute that offers training for professionals. He is currently a Teaching Associate in Psychiatry, at Cambridge Health Alliance, a Harvard Medical School teaching affiliate. Richard has authored or co-authored more than ten books on Internal Family Systems and related topics, including No Bad Parts and Internal Family Systems Therapy.
Where you can follow Dr. Schwartz's work:
Instagram
Where you can learn more about Internal Family Systems:
Leading From Self: Applying Internal Family Systems to Leadership
Please remember to rate, subscribe, review, and share the Undimmed podcast to help this content reach more humans in need of support or inspiration. You can also follow Cecily's @undimmedjourney on Instagram, subscribe to her Substack, or learn more via her website.
Credits:
Host: Cecily Mak
Producer: Joanne Elgart Jennings
Composer & Sound Alchemist: Laura Inserra
Editor: Kai Heartlife
Social Media & Marketing: Megan Belden
Chapters:
0:28 “There are no bad parts”
0:55 Meeting Dick in Costa Rica
2:01 Welcome to Undimmed and the fourth awareness, Healing
3:07 What’s ahead in this episode
5:06 How IFS began: the bulimia study and clients talking about “parts”
9:09 Why protective parts get stuck in the past
9:47 Exiles, burdens and why we lock parts away
12:30 Managers and firefighters: how parts protect us
14:52 The Self
16:55 Curiosity instead of shame, and not making trauma your identity
20:36 Working with dimming protectors: “What are you afraid will happen?”
21:54 The update: how old does this part think you are?
23:08 When willpower just exiles the firefighter
24:26 What surfaces when you pause a dimmer
26:39 Learning to dance without a dimmer
29:45 Parts work on Cecily and Soren’s wedding morning
33:09 Ketamine-assisted IFS and addiction
34:48 Working with regret and remorse
35:43 Live parts work with Cecily
41:02 Meeting the “glossy and shiny” protector
45:14 How Dick uses IFS on himself today
47:51 Self-soothing: Dick’s “world-class pouter”
51:01 What’s next: bringing IFS to leaders and the public
52:40 Where to find Dick
53:16 Outro
Cecily Mak 0:00
Most of us have at least one part of ourselves that we don't particularly like. It might be that part that pours a second or third glass of wine. It might be the part that snaps at a loved one. It might be the part that reaches for our phone to scroll instead of just enjoying a moment of stillness. It turns out we don't need to have disdain for these parts. We can explore a relationship with them in a different way.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 0:28
There are no bad parts. We all have them. We come into the world with them. They're here to help us. It's the natural state of the mind to be multiple, to have these little inner beings. They're not just thoughts and emotions. They have a full range of personality. And trauma and what are called attachment injuries force them out of their naturally valuable states to become extreme protectors of us.
Cecily Mak 0:55
That's Dick Schwartz. Many of you will know him as the founder of Internal Family Systems, IFS, or the author of the very well-known and widely appreciated book, No Bad Parts. I first met Dick a few years ago when I was in between phases of treatment for breast cancer. He was hosting a workshop slash retreat at Blue Spirit in Costa Rica, and we got to know each other a bit during that time, ending with him giving me a life-changing session on a patio overlooking the jungle on the very last day we were there. We've continued our connection and deepened our friendship, and we even work together in some ways. His work, his invitation, his exploration of viewing parts of ourselves with compassion, curiosity, and kindness has absolutely changed my life and that of countless people around the globe. Welcome to Undimmed, a podcast about living with presence.
Cecily Mak 2:01
This season, we're doing a deeper exploration of the eight awarenesses, a set of practices, principles that we can use in exploring our relationship with difficult habits. Today we're talking about healing, the fourth of the eight awarenesses.
Cecily Mak 2:21
This awareness invites us to seek to understand the difficulties of our lives, our trauma, but not necessarily embrace them as our identity.
Cecily Mak 2:32
Our guest today is Dick Schwartz, the creator of IFS, our Internal Family Systems. If you've already seen Pixar's Inside Out, you already have a picture of Dick's work. He helps us develop a healthier relationship with the different voices inside of us.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:53
I'm joy. This is sadness. That's anger. This is disgust. And that's fear.
Cecily Mak 3:07
In our conversation, Dick tells the story about the beginning of IFS. It all started when his clients started talking about parts inside of themselves. We talk about what happens when we pause a dimmer and start to feel more, have a more direct relationship with our parts. I share a bit about how I'm learning to dance without some previously very helpful dimmers. And we also talk about the morning that Dick sat down with my now husband Soren and me on our wedding morning, doing parts work, talking to those voices in ourselves that we're still a little bit anxious about getting married. He also does some parts work with me live in this episode. And we're sharing that with you raw. Full disclosure, I serve on the advisory board for Dick's Internal Family Systems Institute. A joy. It's wonderful to have a dedicated hour where we can kind of draw down some of your perspective, experience, and wisdom on this topic that you know I hold dear, being present and undimmed in a complicated world, and the role that IFS can play in that. So thank you so much for joining us. I would love to hear in your words as a start for those listeners who are not yet familiar with IFS, Internal Family Systems, or the model that you have been bringing to the world for the last 40 years. I think you just had your anniversary of the IFS model. What is it? How do people use it?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 5:06
I'll try to give you the elevator version, but um it's it's actually now about 44 years. And back then I was uh very fresh PhD from uh Marital and Family Therapy program, and one of those obnoxious therapists that thought we'd found the Holy Grail and that people who mucked around in the inner world were wasting their time because we could change all that by just reorganizing family structures, and set out to prove that and went up doing an outcome study with what at the time was seemed to be a new syndrome called bulimia, and gathered together 30 bulimia kids and their families and found that we could reorganize the families just right, and still the kids kept binging and purging. So out of frustration I began to ask why, and they started teaching this to me because they began talking about parts, that was the word they used, and they also would talk about this critic as a part, and the critic is very nasty to me, and then that goes right to the heart of a part that feels worthless and empty alone. And that feeling is so dreadful that the binge comes in to give me away. But the act of the binge uh brings back the critic who's calling me a pig on top of the other names, and then that goes right to that worthlessness again, and so the binge has to come back. And they'd be caught in that vicious cycle for days. And across client, the the reports were very similar, and they were talking about these parts as if they had a lot of autonomy and relationships with each other, and they could take over and make you do things you didn't want to do, all of which is relevant to what your book is about. And at first I got scared. I thought maybe they had multiple personality disorder, but then I listened inside myself and oh my god, I've got them too. And some of mine are equally extreme. And so then I settled down and uh tried to figure out ways to help clients work with these parts, and initially I was making the mistake that most of the field still makes, which is to assume they are what they seem to be. So the critic is an internalized parental voice, and the binge is an out-of-control impulse. And if you think of them that way and think of them in isolation from each other, it makes sense to try and get your client to argue with the critic, stand up for themselves, or to try and control the binge. So I was doing that, and it wasn't working. In fact, my kids were getting worse, but I didn't know what else to do until the first client I was aware of that cut herself in addition to binging. And it was driving me crazy to have her do that on my watch. And so for a couple hours in one session, uh, I'd learned about a way you could actually talk to these parts. So I was talking to it, having her talk to it, and badgering it about stopping. And at the end of the session, the part said it would. So, but of course, I were opened the door of the next session. She's got a big de gash down her face. And I I groaned like that, and I uh I spontaneously just said, I give up, I can't beat you. And the part said, I don't want to beat you. And that was a turning point in the history of this work because I shifted out of that coercive place to now just being purely curious. Why do you do this then?
Cecily Mak 9:09
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 9:09
And the part proceeded to tell the story of how when she was being abused as a child, it had to get her out of her body and contain the rage that would get her moral abuse. And with that, I shifted again. Now I have a kind of appreciation for the heroic role it played in her life. And how much it still felt like it needed to do this for her.
Cecily Mak 9:31
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 9:32
But as I explored that, it became clear that the part wasn't living in the present. It was still frozen in those abuse scenes.
unknown 9:41
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 9:42
And still thought she was five years old and needed to protect her.
Cecily Mak 9:46
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 9:47
And so, with all of that, came a totally different understanding of these parts. And as I asked those same kinds of questions of other clients, lo and behold, the same answers. That they were trying to protect the client, and they were stuck in the past. And so, 44 years later, thousands of people now using this everywhere, we can safely say that, first of all, there are no bad parts. We all have them, we come into the world with them, they're here to help us. It's the natural state of the mind to be multiple, to have these little inner inner beings. They're not just thoughts and emotions, they have a full uh range of personality. And and trauma and what are called attachment injuries force them out of their naturally valuable states to become extreme protectors of us.
Cecily Mak 10:50
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 10:51
And uh and but some of them before they got hurt, we would call these lovely inner children that are so playful and loving and creative and spontaneous. Yeah, but they're also the most sensitive parts of us. So they get the hurt the most by the traumas, or they get terrified by the traumas, or they get made to feel worthless by the traumas.
Cecily Mak 11:20
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 11:21
And when they carry those what we call burdens, definition which is an extreme belief or emotion that came into you during a traumatic experience, and then graft onto these parts and then drive them like a virus. So as these young, formerly playful parts get burdened like that, we don't want to be around them because they have the power to make us feel that all the time. And pull us back into those scenes.
Cecily Mak 11:54
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 11:55
So we have a natural impulse to try and get away from them and lock them away in inner basements and just move on, quote unquote.
Cecily Mak 12:04
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 12:04
Thinking we're just moving away from the memories or maybe even the emotions.
unknown 12:08
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 12:08
Not realizing that we're locking away our most precious qualities. So these we call exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate, the world seems more dangerous, so many things can trigger them. And if they get triggered, it's like this explosion of raw emotion.
unknown 12:26
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 12:27
Flames of emotion that are going to consume you.
Cecily Mak 12:29
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 12:30
So other parts are forced out of their naturally valuable states to become protectors. And some of them try to manage our lives so that nothing like that ever happens again. So maybe not let anybody close enough to hurt us like that, or uh try to get us uh to look perfect so we never get rejected, or to perform at a really high level so that uh we get accolades to counter the worthlessness, or to take care of everybody except ourselves, so they don't leave us, uh, and so on. So there are a lot of common what we call manager protector roles.
Cecily Mak 13:16
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 13:17
And most of them most of us have those. Other systems call them the ego, and most of them uh got us to where we are. Yeah, they deserve a lot of credit. But they're like in family therapy we used to call parentified children.
Cecily Mak 13:36
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 13:37
They're too young to run your life, so they're tired all the time and feel the weight of all that responsibility. Let me quickly just tell you the other, which is when that doesn't work and the exiles do get triggered, it's a big emergency because all this emotion comes rushing out, and there's another set of parts who immediately go into action to deal with it and either get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance till they burn themselves out, or distract you till uh they burn themselves out. And so we call those firefighters, which is part of the topic of your book, I think. And uh and most of us have a hierarchy of those to try and deal with these exiles, keep them contained. So that's the map of the parts.
Cecily Mak 14:35
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:35
But and I'll let you say something now, but the big deal about I of us is what I call the self, which we can talk about in a minute.
Cecily Mak 14:43
Yeah. And getting to that that capital S self. Why don't you why don't you mention that? Because it is such an important anchoring point.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:52
Okay. So as I was mapping all this out, and I I was just using my system's background from family therapy to understand. I didn't want to just like in family therapy, we didn't look at one individual member of a family, we looked at the whole system and we mapped it out. I was doing the same with this inner system. And I was also trying to intervene in the same way. Once I got hit to the fact these parts deserved to be listened to rather than fought with, I might have you trying to listen to your critic, and it's going okay, you're you're not being angry at it, and you're not afraid of it. And it's it's softening. But suddenly you're furious with the critic. So I would ask you to ask that part to give us a little space for a few minutes so you can just stay getting to know the critic. And to my amazement, clients could do that. And when they did, it was like this other person would pop out, not just open to listening, but had qualities like calm and confidence and even compassion toward the critic. Because when I would ask clients what part of you is that, let's keep that around.
Cecily Mak 16:09
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:09
They would say, That's not a part like these others. That's me. That's my self or my core, my essence. So I came to call that the self.
Cecily Mak 16:19
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:20
And uh, yeah, so turns out that's in everybody, can't be damaged, knows how to heal, and is just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it pops out spontaneously. So when I'm working with somebody, I try to help them access that state first, and then I have them begin to get to know the parts. And have the parts come to trust that self as a leader. Uh there's a lot more to it than that, but I'll stop there.
Cecily Mak 16:55
And and always I've noticed with this steady compassion and curiosity. There's never this kind of damning or labeling or shaming of the parts, which is, I think, one of the most beautiful features of this work. And it's it's a perspective or an energy that I was very influenced by on my own path. And as I was finishing this book, it also ended up influencing a little bit about how the aid awarenesses work. Because when we are trying to shift a behavior or a habit or an orientation within ourselves, it's so easy to flip into anger, frustration, disappointment, shame, whatever it might be. And one of the most potent things about the model for people who are on this type of an undimming journey is to shift that orientation from these are all the things that are wrong with me, to I have a lot of curiosity about these different perspectives and voices and tendencies and behaviors. And I really appreciate your sharing the bit about the cutting because it's so easy to see and label that I imagine as a therapist as bad. And and kind of put it into a penalty box as the problem. And that shift that you just explained about how that went from ajata to curiosity was the healing moment. That's amazing. So one of the reasons why I wanted to have you join us today and and talk about specifically a bit around what I refer to as the fourth awareness, which is around trauma, is that one experience I hear from people a lot is that, and this is woven into the eight awarenesses as they're captured in the book and other conversations, is that we we work hard in our process to not make it part of our identity. So, for example, in my own path, I for a while referred to myself as the daughter of a deceased alcoholic. I don't allow myself to be referred to as a breast cancer survivor. For some reason I find that particularly ill-matched to my experience, but there's certain kind of defenses I think we can put up to identities. And a lot of our listeners are in this experience of noticing that we're using something to feel less. We are either, you know, whether it's alcohol or perfectionism or excessive work, sugar food, drugs, gambling, social media, the list is long. We're all in some way, shape, or form kind of self-soothing in a way. And I'm curious to hear in your words how how the IFS perspective can apply to somebody who is really grappling with that. So you're starting to do the thing less, you're starting to feel more, it can be upsetting. And I know ideally this is done in a therapeutic setting with a licensed person who's trained in IFS, but are there any kind of tidbits of guidance that you can offer to us who are who are struggling with that reckoning with something that's uncomfortable and using things in ways maybe we don't like to feel less?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:36
Yeah, you know, when we work with these uh dimming protectors, one of the questions we'll ask very early is what are you afraid will happen if you don't keep dimming, if you don't keep doing this? And in answering that, we'll often hear about the pain that the client would feel, or the the fear that would come rushing up. Or, you know, we're hearing about what they had successfully exiled by using the dimming. And so if somebody goes goes to just try on with willpower to stop some kind of a habit that's like that, that is that is a protector. I mean, there are habits that you can stop, and it's not protecting anything, it's just a habit. But many of the kind of things I think you're focused on are protectors, and there are consequences to them stopping. Now, sometimes the consequences are not anything like what they fear because they're stuck stuck at the time when they really had to do this for you or s you because you couldn't handle it, you were too young.
unknown 21:54
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:54
And they still think you're that age and that you still can't handle it. So one of the Things we often do is what we call an update. So I would have you focus on the part maybe that used to make you drink or still wants to, and ask it how old it thinks you are. And most people will get a single digit as an answer. And then if you can let it know that you appreciate how much it had to do this back then, but you're older now and you can take care of it. It doesn't have to take care of you. That can really help. A lot of these parts are shocked to learn that that's the case. And uh so that can be really helpful. And if there's still an exile that it's protecting, it'll still be hard for it to not try to push you. And then you wind up uh exiling the firefighter, so locking away the part that tries to want that wants to get you dimmed or high.
Cecily Mak 23:08
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:08
As well as the other exiles. It becomes a protector in exile. And then you become a kind of what's called a dry drunk. You become dominated by these managers who are terrified if they let up that something will trigger the whole system and you'll go off the wagon. And so that's the way a lot of people are living, either in recovery or out. There's uh a delicacy to that. Now, if instead you learn that there is a part that this firefighter is trying to keep you higher than, and sometimes it's hard to do on your own. Some people can, but most people do need a therapist, but you go to it and you let it share what happened in the past and what when it got hurt, and then you can actually get it out of that place in the past and help it unload the feelings and beliefs that it got from that time, it'll transform into a happy little kid inside of you. And then you can show this one, it doesn't have to dim you like that anymore.
unknown 24:18
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:18
And it'll be happy to do something entirely different. So that's how we work with addictions like that.
Cecily Mak 24:26
And when somebody is going through that experience, let's say they have a habit, you know, I I've spoken and written extensively, mine was alcohol for years. Now it's probably a bit more um kind of like busyness and performative work and kind of showing up in a certain way in the world, or even for the family, this like hyper-productivity, hyper vigilance, hyper capacity. And and and when we peel away or we pause that tendency, or we let's say we we say for a week, I'm just not gonna overperform at home, or I'm going to, you know, for maybe some people it's I'm gonna not have my nightly Chardonnay for a week and just see how that feels. And then they encounter the the difficulty beneath the surface. Is that is that self? Is that true self, or is that a part beneath the surface? Explain to us how we can relate to that in a way that's kind of helping us get from a hard place to a better place.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:32
Yeah, well, you'll you'll encounter what the dimming part was trying to keep you away from, which usually is some pain from the past or terror or sense of shame, worthlessness. And so you you definitely will start to feel that. Now, it may be that you you can handle it much more than the part thought. And you can demonstrate that by being with it, by letting the pain come and letting it express itself to you and showing you where it came from on your own. And and that could be a big surprise to the STIMI part who th really thought you couldn't handle it. So that would be the ideal, but it but if it's uh traumatic enough, it's still very hard for some some of us to handle those things and witness them uh even as an adult. And so that's where therapies come in.
Cecily Mak 26:38
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 26:39
Yeah. I I smiled a little bit because one of my current it's it's it's silly and mundane compared to some of the other things many of us are dealing with or I even have in my past. But one thing I I'm playing with right now is dancing. Because I was a I was a very kind of awkward. I mean, I I was a I was a good dancer when I was young. And then when I went through puberty, my pace of running and my dancing capacities kind of grew awkward. And then shortly thereafter, I discovered alcohol and how to party and go to clubs under the influence. And so I spent decades of my life only really self-expressing in dance with some lubricant of some kind. And then pausing my you know partying tendencies eight now, nine years ago, I'm I feel like I'm 11 again when I'm in a dance setting. I'm I'm trying so hard to not be um self-critical and um kind of accept that that younger version of me and your model has really helped me a lot in that way, which is super sweet.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:57
That's great that you uh can do it without the lubrication.
Cecily Mak 28:00
So I'm no, I can't say I I don't want to go that far. I'm I'm trying, and I it's kind of a personal goal for me over the next year, whether it's you know, movement classes or finding intimate settings where I can kind of be less self-conscious, but it's it's surprisingly difficult. And I think a lot of a lot of people who get used to only doing something with something, then when you when you don't. I mean, that one I hear about all the time is initiating intimacy. It's really hard and awkward, and we're exposed to the risk of rejection and the feelings that that brings up. And that's just parts that we can kind of I use this term self-grace hand on heart a lot in the book. Like, can we just have have compassion and a little bit of curiosity around that as opposed to disdain or judgment? Um Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:54
And that, you know, your book takes a lot of steps toward making that shift, because many of us, particularly those of us who grew up with parents who had disdain for vulnerability, you know.
Cecily Mak 29:09
None of us grew up with parents with disdain for vulnerability.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:13
We take that in, and then we have disdain for our own vulnerability, and so these poor little uh young parts of us that get hurt, now they have to listen to our critics who say we're weak and and mushy and continue to try and lock them away. So just reversing that, which you do a nice job with, and having compassion for these young parts that got hurt is a big, big step.
Cecily Mak 29:44
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 29:45
I had that experience actually the last time we were able to do a little work, I I mentioned this on a prior episode, um, was about three months ago on Sorens and my wedding morning. And um boy, did we have parts up and alive and kicking and screaming going into our wedding day. We both had divorces that were difficult in our past, and a lot of kind of inner dialogue among parts around the scariness of recommitting in love in community in marriage. And um, you know, it's an interesting experience to sit. We sat together, the three of us, at a at a table at 9 a.m. on wedding day. It's it's still amazing to me that we were able to do that with you. And I I really just have to share, I don't know if I had the presence to do it in that moment, but it was the first time I've done parts work and not gone back to a child part. It was actually an adult part. But it was a very strong piece of me that had been really obstructing something I really wanted to do. You know, kind of literally, I see this metaphor of like standing in the path with like a whole handful of red flags, like, no, do not go here, do not proceed, danger ahead. And uh Dick, I I since then that that part was sort of seen and heard that morning, and we didn't tell that that it was bad or that it was wrong. And I was able to acknowledge that fear in me. And Soren had a similar experience, and it opened the path. And and I it's something that I hear so much from people that realizing that it's not this, you know, clear black and white, good or bad, or right or wrong. These are just pieces of us that we have been not wanting to see or feel or experience. And when we give them a little bit of space, you use the language they get out of the way, which is a beautiful thing. So what a gift. Um I have a question about uh psychedelics. So a lot of people who are exploring this undimmed work and are are on a healing path. If people are listening to this podcast, they have curiosity about self-energy and how to live with more presence and more alignment with what's true and valuable to them. And a lot of people listening are also in the experience of either having been through an addiction or curiosity about an addiction, and maybe it's not drugs or alcohol, but it could be something else. But I know that you have, with great success, started in recent years using psychedelics in thoughtful ways to help people on their healing journey, even if they do have an addiction story in their past in some way. And I would love to hear in your words how this work has helped people kind of do this path clearing.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:09
I've really only uh work therapeutically with ketamine, and it is the one addictive psychedelic, and uh but it's also the legal one. So we've done retreats where the whole group takes the medicine, and then I'll go around and work with each of them for maybe 15-20 minutes, and I've been amazed because the medicine seems to put what we call the managers to sleep almost, and so people can very quickly access a huge amount of self-energy, and in that state, it's a big invitation for all these exiled parts to come and get heard and seen, and and so I can do in 15 minutes what might take five sessions, so that's been the work, and we've had people with addiction histories come and were very afraid to do it because it does ketamine can be addictive, but it really has the opposite effect because if through the workshop you actually heal the parts that the addictive parts of you were trying to help you cope with, then it isn't addictive. For me, addiction is really about protecting and dimming more much more than uh uh some kind of disease.
Cecily Mak 34:45
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 34:48
That's beautiful. Have you experienced whether it's in a psychedelic supported setting or in a therapeutic setting or elsewhere, how this work can function in supporting people who might have regret or remorse?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 35:08
Yeah. So uh about an addiction, you mean, or about anything? Just anything?
Cecily Mak 35:13
No, it's it's usually I think and I can actually speak from personal experience. It's it's it's how we didn't show up or how we did show up before we were clear.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 35:26
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 35:28
And that's painful.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 35:30
Totally. Now, if you want, we could do a little piece of work to demonstrate how how to do that if you if that is a part of you.
Cecily Mak 35:42
I would love to.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 35:43
Okay, ready? So focus on that that focus on the voice that's saying you did this and you shouldn't have, or whatever it's saying.
Cecily Mak 35:59
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:01
And find it in your body or around your body?
Cecily Mak 36:04
Yeah, it's like it's in my upper chest, like between my heart and my my collarbone on the left, actually.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:10
Okay. And how do you feel toward it as you notice it there?
Cecily Mak 36:15
I just want to pretend it's not there, actually. I Yeah. I feel like if I turn my body w a a a little bit of a direction to the right, I can avoid it.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:27
Yeah, so that is the way that a lot of people try to handle it. But let's just see if the part that wants to get you to avoid it or deny it could give us the space to try and help it and to get curious about it. So just see if that part'll lighten up a bit. Relax back for a little while. And then we might be able to help it.
Cecily Mak 36:55
Okay.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:57
And then go back to the target part, the original part. And how do you feel toward it now?
Cecily Mak 37:06
It's it's actually sadness.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:09
Okay. How do you feel toward it as you get that?
Cecily Mak 37:16
I feel I feel a lot of I feel a lot of empathy or yeah, it's just sort of like a sad, sad awareness. For me.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:32
So let him know. You have empathy for it, or you care about it. See how it reacts.
Cecily Mak 37:44
So it's kind of crouched down and turned away. Um and it's kind of like turning and facing me a little bit, like wanting wanting to make eye contact.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:55
Good. So just stay with it that way. Compassionate way, letting it know you get that it has a lot of sadness and grief, maybe.
Cecily Mak 38:10
Yeah, it it's reminding me that I've spun this into a positive story, so we're just fine here. And um I'm saying that that's we know that that's not really true. Let's let's be true.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:22
Yeah, okay. I don't know, it can be direct and honest right now.
Cecily Mak 38:32
Okay. It's it's less crouched, it's more open.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:42
Just see what it wants you to know about its sadness or its story. What does it want you to know?
Cecily Mak 38:52
You know, it it it feels a little bit pushed away. Yeah. Um it's you know, the the this the particular the particular memory that it sits in is this moment of um like seeing seeing me not present with my sons when they were younger, maybe like five and nine, four and eight. And it's it's a little bit mournful. Like it's yeah, yeah. It's sad about that, and it it feels like I haven't really given it um space to be sad.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:35
So maybe you could apologize to it for that, for letting these other parts pull you away from it. But let it know now you can be with it.
Cecily Mak 39:48
Like it's saying, like it's it's a like there's this is such a cheesy thing to say, but it's like good the grief is actually the healing.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:58
Yeah. Yeah, there's grief about having missed those years.
Cecily Mak 40:04
Yeah, and that having space for that grief is is like it's loosening it in a way. It doesn't want to do that right now. But it does want to it wants some space for that.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:24
What do you say to it about that?
Cecily Mak 40:28
I feel really inclined to to say I will create that space. I think I there's like some creative expression that wants to come to capture that feeling. I don't know if it's writing or painting or something, but there's some artful expression of that feeling that wants to be in the light of day, not crouched in the corner.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:53
Yeah. So you're saying you'll make space for it on your own?
Cecily Mak 40:59
Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:02
Okay, good. And before we stop, let's bring in the other part that had tried to keep you away from it. So it can see that this part isn't what it thought. Yeah. And see how it reacts.
Cecily Mak 41:22
It it likes to keep things glossy and shiny, and and it's willing to uh remove some of the gloss and shine for a little bit and uh give this one some space.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:34
Okay.
Cecily Mak 41:36
It's um it's a little bit begrudgingly agreeing to do so, but but there's a there's a threat of respect.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:44
There's a threat of respect. And maybe before we leave it, what's it afraid will happen if everything isn't so glossy and shiny?
Cecily Mak 41:54
Oh, the world will just come tumbling down. I'm being exaggerative. It's it's it feels like it has a very big job. Yeah. To protect a lot of uh it's not quite vulnerability or quite messiness, but like unknown, I guess is the better word.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:18
Yeah. Well, it's been doing this a long time, so it's not sure if the word world would full fall apart or not, but it doesn't want to take that risk. Does that sound right?
Cecily Mak 42:28
Very very much so.
unknown 42:30
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 42:30
And it it sort of says like this has been working really well. Why would you want me to step aside?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:36
Well, that's what all these primary managers say.
Cecily Mak 42:40
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:44
Why would you want to but let it know that you also get that it's probably very tired.
Cecily Mak 42:54
Yeah. It it it acknowledges it feels under it's kind of like aged and like thin and a little bit more delicate than maybe it it presents.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:07
Yeah. So let it know you see that and it's really not good for it to have all this responsibility.
Cecily Mak 43:16
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:16
And ask ask it how old it thinks you are.
Cecily Mak 43:26
I think someone like seven or eight.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:28
Yeah. So it's been doing this job since she's that age, probably. And uh let her know how old you are. And how much you can handle now that you couldn't back then. See how it reacts. Yeah.
Cecily Mak 43:57
Yeah, startled.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:01
And if it could trust this that you could actually lead things, it doesn't have to as much. And you could take care of it. What would that be like for it?
Cecily Mak 44:13
It immediately wants to just sit down. Like I just see it kind of like fall into a folded leg, like and the head tilts a little bit. It's a little bit like, oh my god. It's an ease and a r like a it's a rest gesture.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:33
Yeah, that's good. Because, you know, my guess is when you were seven, things did have to be shiny and glossy to make it in your family, right?
Cecily Mak 44:46
Yeah.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:48
So we understand why, but it's not so needed now.
Cecily Mak 44:59
Beautiful. Beautiful.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:04
Well it is beautiful. I you know, I really enjoy working with you and it's a great great example of what we've been talking about.
Cecily Mak 45:12
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 45:14
Yeah. Thank you, Dick. It's funny these uh these moments, and and I I hear this from people a lot, it's so simple what you offer, and the depth and durability of the impact is so profound. And if if we all could even just pull a little bit of a thread of that curiosity and not over-identifying with the parts of us that are so challenging at times. That's such a big step, I think, in the awareness of kind of reorganizing life to be more aligned for us, which has been really the most beautiful, beautiful thing. And um I'm curious when do you do this work on yourself today also?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:12
Yeah, sure. I've been at this long time and I still run into parts that need to be healed. But having done this for a long time, my parts do trust me to lead. You know, that's what I was trying to help that glossy one trust you to lead. And they'll still get triggered and they'll still kind of pop out. But I can pretty quickly identify them and say, okay. Remember, it always goes better if you let me handle things. And I'll feel these shifts very quickly as they separate, and then they become advisors rather than dominators, and and then uh things work out.
Cecily Mak 46:59
Amazing. Do you do this kind of like in a sitting practice, or are you so far along in your journey that you can kind of just be taking a walk and have this shift?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:08
It's both. You know, I'll sit, I still meditate some, and so I'll sit and work with them that way. And but it does become a kind of life practice where, as I anticipated talking to you and being podcast, I've but got parts that are quite shy and worry about saying the wrong thing, and so I sit with them for a minute, remind them that they can trust me, and I'll feel that shift again, and I'll be open-hearted and expressive. And as I go through the day, I'm kind of reminding them, and I'm also noticing who gets triggered in what context, and anticipating that and working with them.
Cecily Mak 47:51
Amazing. One of the things I I ask all of our guests, because we get to learn from each other, is how do you, in your own moments of kind of stress or pressure, agitat or nervousness, what are your go-to tools to self-soothe? How do you how do you reground in those times?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:14
Yeah, I just kind of described it. I mean, I for example, my wife Jean and I had a fight last night. And I have I have a part that can be a world-class powder. And I I inherited from my grandfather, and so it took over for a few seconds, and uh and then I I noticed it and I said, let me handle this. And so this morning when I talked to her, I could be much more what I call self-led when I talked to her. But I could also speak for that part and how it got hurt by what she did last night. And that went much better than had I stayed in that part and either totally withdrew and made her, you know, pay for it, or had another part of me come out and yell at her about it. So and it in terms of self-soothing, I'm going to that pouting part and I'm holding it inside and I'm loving it up myself. Yeah. And at the same time, I say, okay, and trust me to take care of this.
Cecily Mak 49:28
It must be um remarkable, the two of you, with your decades of fluency in this work, because you can you can talk that way. I actually myself this morning also had Sorn and I, it wasn't an argument, but we had something come up where I had some feelings about something that's happening next week. And he's doing really deep parts work right now. And I'm familiar enough with the framework. We're actually as a couple, it sounds like you and Gene too, like the dust can settle. And we know we're trying to follow in your footsteps. It's it's very um, it's very helpful to see these as not our core self when we react, whether that's you know, you're you being the powder or somebody else being defensive, or I get really righteous, like I have all the answers in my ways the right way. Like a little bit more of a strong female tendency.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:21
I've got that one too, and Gene has that in space.
Cecily Mak 50:24
Oh, yes, I know. It's one reason why we all get along so well. So I I know you're really, really an active uh person because I have the great joy of working with you and some other advisors in your advisory board, and I get to uh have a little bit of a glimpse into everything that's emergent for you and evolving for you and the organization and the community and the incredible demand for the trainings. What's one thing that you're you're particularly excited about right now as as IFS continues to kind of expand and spread its its wisdom in the way that it is?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:01
You know, a few years ago it became clear that I my role was to bring IFS to larger systems, not just trained therapists. So we have a bunch of projects along those lines, one of which involves Sorin, because we're gonna ideally do some work with AI leaders, bring more self-leadership to that community, which you know if we don't have it, it's gonna kill us all. But uh a lot of uh projects designed to help leaders at various levels, and some of whom are social activists, but others are corporate leaders or nonprofit leaders. We're bringing it directly to the public more. So there's a variety of those kind of projects of taking it out of the box of just training therapists that has me excited.
Cecily Mak 51:55
Yeah.
Cecily Mak 51:56
Yeah. I I love that you're hitting both ends of it, right? It's the very potent, highly influential leaders in high impact spaces, but then also really making it accessible to everybody. It was very helpful to have you here today. Anyone who reads the book and is familiar with your work will see see the connections. And it's uh it's an incredible asset to anybody kind of on this journey. I refer to it as the undimming journey to to have at least a basic familiarity of the tools and approach. So thank you so much for that. How can people find you if they want to learn more about you or follow your your work and and focus these days?
Dr. Richard Schwartz 52:40
Our website is ifs-institute.com. And actually, uh we're developing a website just for me. Excellent. If there are people interested in stuff that I'm doing, that would be the place to go to.
Cecily Mak 52:58
Wonderful. Thank you for being a such an important grounding and awareness in what I what I try to offer. It's it's a gift.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:07
You're very welcome.
Cecily Mak 53:09
All right. Thank you, Dick.
Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:11
Thank you, Cecily. Bye-bye.
Cecily Mak 53:16
You've been listening to Undimmed.
Cecily Mak 53:18
I'm Cecily Mack.
Cecily Mak 53:20
Our guest today was Dick Schwartz, the creator of IFS, our Internal Family Systems. Dick, I know I'm speaking on behalf of many, many humans when I thank you for your beautiful work. We appreciate you. If you want to learn more about Dick, follow his efforts, learn more about his IFS offerings, you can find important links and details in our show notes. Undimmed is produced by Joanne Jennings with video editing by Kai HeartLife. The custom music was made by Lara and Sarah, and Megan Belden helps with marketing and social. To make sure you don't miss an episode, you can subscribe to Undimmed anywhere you find your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
Cecily Mak 54:10
And if you're inspired by, touched by, or in some other way appreciate what you heard or saw here, please take a moment and leave us a review.
Cecily Mak 54:19
Your feedback helps this show find the people who will appreciate it the most. Season two continues with an episode every other week on Friday, with a Substack released by me biweekly in between. Thank you for joining us. Be well.